Posts by Change Name

130

How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?

by Change Name in

hi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.

i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .

do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.

Change Name

Hi again wasblind - Who is Alice?

Hi Dismissing Servant - To claim that I am somebody else gives the one making the accusation an excuse not to answer my questions. Its a ploy to dismiss me and my question. It shows the lurkers that it is okay to not think beyond what your current beliefs about the WTS are.

Hi again Witness My Fury - As I have stated on many occations, this is the only time and handle that I have been on this forum. You are looking for excuses to demonize me.

Hi there Emery - I have a career and a family. This forum is not my life. I come here when I have some time.

Hi there jgnat - To me it is not a scandal. It is pretty black and white. It is these rumormongers and instigators that mislead their readers into believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses did something wrong when they became an NGO/DPI to gather information.

Hi there Finklestein - An act of hypocrisy. Huh. Do you truly understand Babylon the Great and the Wild Beast? Or were you one of those "Jack JW's" who attended but did not believe, choosing to listen with half an ear? No egg on my face.

Hi there Imposters are Doomed - I did not choose my icon and have no been able to figure out how to change it. But please, keep on insulting me.

Hi there problemaddict - I am always open to a different opinion on a subject. It has to be accurate and with evidence used in an honest way. When a group of Christians tells the world that the UN is the political expression of God's government on the earth, then people should reconsider what the source is saying. When a group of Christians tells the world that the UN is the only hope for mankind, then it would be time to reconsider that source. The Jehovah's Witnesses did neither. Mainstream Christianity has. I do not find it hypocritical to tell people that the UN is not the political expression of God or that the UN is not the only hope for mankind. The UN has nothing to do with God. It is mankinds creation. The Jehovah's Witnesses used this "government" as a source for information gathering about the different countries of the world. They did not put it on a pedestal as the government all should bow to because it is the only hope for mankind.

I do not know anything about one being disfellowshiped for joining the YMCA. I know that people are disfellowshiped for their attitude and lifestyle. If their attitude is not Christian, or if their lifestyle is in direct opposition to how a Christian should live, and they are vocal in their decisions, they will be disfellowshiped. This is what I have read about and what I have observed.

Hi again Dismissing Servant - " The society said they wanted acess to the library......which they could have had anyways. "

I do not know what their mindset was in regards to becoming a NGO/DPI. I think most, who can reason for themselves, believe that the reason they became an NGO/DPI is for information gathering. I am sure that they may have became the NGO/DPI to help battle countries who refuse to give them the right to preach their message (without jail time) about the kingdom of God and to be recognized as a religion. Again, nothing wrong with that if it helps increase their preaching activities.

Now, why would you insult a group of people by calling them Borg? I find it insulting. Why do you not? If you must present your views about their society, why do you need to insult them? I have always told my sons if they could not express themselves without cussing or insulting, then their views are diminished in the eyes of the ones listening.

Hi again Witness My Fury - The 1st century Christians were a cult. The Hebrews were a cult. All religions are a cult. Your attempt at insult was wasted.

Hi there Blues Brothers - http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/thechangingworldofngos.html Could it be that they did change? Read the information and decide for yourself. Do not rely on others to make the decision for you.

Here is the summary of their findings:

Summary

Apostates quote requirements from the 2005 brochure when it is clear from copies of earlier brochures that they have changed.
In 1994 the UN said a new relationship between the UN and its NGOs was being created.
In 1998 the General Assembly of the UN acknowledged that the NGO world was entering a new era.
In 1999 the Global Policy Forum said the NGO world is changing very fast.
It is clear that requirements and expectations for NGOs changed over the 1990s.

Hi again Emery - I do not know what TTATT is. You must remember, the JW's are a group of humans who are sinful and fall short. They can and will make mistakes.

Hi there 00DAD - See my message to Blues Brothers.

Hi there Amelia Ashton - I know of Jimmy Swaggart. Again, those who oppose the Jehovah's Witnesses blow this way out of proportion.

Hi there Honesty, trujw and Dismissing Servant - eh, I am still with this thread. I have a life and cannot be on this forum 24/7. I am still waiting for my intitial questions to be answered honestly by you folks instead of getting a play by play from you.

Hi there Data-Dog - I am still not understanding why it was wrong for them to become an NGO/DPI for information gathering. If the JW's are the only Christians (or as you said it, God's true channel), then why would it be wrong for them to gather information from the source for its time?

Hi there Finkelstein - You post something about the 2006 OSCE Human Dimension Implementation Meeting but do not tell us what the meeting was about and why the JW's were there. I have never heard of the OSCE.

"ODIHR organizes an annual meeting in Warsaw to review the implementation of a broad range of OSCE human dimension commitments, including in the areas of human rights and fundamental freedoms, elections, the promotion of tolerance, use of the death penalty, and the rights of national minorities." [link]

I so no reason why they should not be at this meeting. They are looking out for the well being of other Jehovah's Witnesses. I am sure they were not there because of elections. There were there because of religious freedoms. From what I have read, they are a champion for religious freedoms. Why think the worst of them when there is no proof of it?

I am not sure why you think it outrageous to this that the JW's became an NGO/DPI because of information gathering. If they became an NGO/DPI " to find out information about health, ecological and social problems", why think anything but that? If they state this was their goal, information gathering, why call them liars? If they became an NGO/DPI in addition to finding out information about health, ecological and social problems ,to help progress their ministry in lands like Russia and China, would that not be a good thing?

Hi there Uncantnome - Okay, got it. You discount anything presented by the JW's because you lack interest. Your interest centers around bringing down "the Watchtower" and will read anything (even if it is factually wrong) to feed this interest. Gotcha.

Hi there Brant Jones - I cannot begin to understand your position. I do not know of the doctrinal view change of neutrality in the 90's nor the generation change before 2000. It appears you lost the trust and loyalty for your former brothers. When you vocalized it is when your life started to unravel. They then lost the trust and loyalty for you. You felt that they treated you like a dog. That is your perspective. How did you treat them? Do you think that they felt you treated them like dogs? How do you think they believed you treated them? Do you care?

I am sure they disfellowshiped you for apostasy against Christianity not because of your refusal to accept their apostasy. Your position was contrary to theirs. You believed that they hung out with the Wild Beast and accepted the UN as the political expression of God's government on earth and their only hope for mankind. I am not sure why, but this your reasoning.

Hi there Crisis of Conscience - Okay. I am a troll and a brainwashed cult member. Been called a brainwashed cult member since before I started studying with the Witnesses. I think it has been about 20 years now that I have been a cult member of 1. Maybe you should not read my words if I have brainwashed you so you can deprogram yourself. I think the next week watching the 700 Club should do it with a few Hail Mary's thrown in there would do the trick.

Hi there Banladore - oh yes. Jehovah's Witnesses do bury our heads in the sand. That is why sites like these are available:

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/

http://dismythed.blogspot.com/

http://defendingthenwt.blogspot.com/

http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/

http://peaceandbeauty.wordpress.com/

http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.com/

http://www.witnessoftruth.com/articles/index.html

Hi there 00DAD - Yeah. It seems as if you have never seen Welcome Back Kotter.

Hi again Satanus - Brainwashing and conditioning. You may think you are not brainwashed, but you never can know, can you? Its not that I dislike cutting and pasting. It has its place. I jwant you to think and answer for yourselves. Most people of your community rely on JW opposers arguements and reasonings.

Hi there Apognophos - Emotional trauma from Trolls and Apologists. I understand. They think all newbies to this forum are trash and should not be tolerated. They do not want opposing views and try to squash anything positive about the Jehovah's Witnesses. Many will not contemplate what Jehovah's Witnesses have to say and just want to lash out. This has been my experience here.

I have the WT CD and read the first few articles from the Awakes. Nothing wrong with what they have said. Did they build up the UN as the only hope for mankind.

Hi there Londo111 - You can claim I do not understand mind control, indocrination, conditioning and brainwashing works. I think I have a working understanding of what it is. All Abrahamic religions use it in one way or another. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that you must make your mind and your life that of what their understanding of Christianity is or you will not be raised to Paradise. Muslims force you to believe that Muhammad is the only prophet and that all else will die in agonizing pain and torment. Mainstream Christianity touts that you must believe that God is to be worshiped or you will be sent to hell to suffer for all eternity. The Jews believe... well, it depends again on the sect. But some sort of consequence will happen to you if you are not Jewish.

Hi again punkofnice - Who says I am counting time. Sheesh, you gotta read all my responses. I have already covered this

Hi there Wholly - As far as I remember, they teach that the Wild beast is the UN. The JW's teach that you should not have the spirit of this world guide you and they also teach that this system of things is not of Jehovah's design, but that of Satan's.

Hi again Finkelstein - Beliefs are your truths. Your belief is that the JW's joined the UN. The truth is that they registered as an NGO/DPI. Your belief is that by joining the UN they became hypocrites because by joining the UN they must endorse the UN as God's political expression of God kingdom on earth and the only hope for mankind. The truth is that they registered as an NGO/DPI for information gathering and to protect their rights to preach the message of the Bible. They do not believe that the UN is the political expression of God's kingdom on Earth nor do they believe the UN is the only hope for mankind. Both those are Jehovah and his son Jesus.

Hi again Apognophos - Read my message to Finkelstein. I think reactions are telling of the person I am talking to. I believe we will have many discussion on your issues.

That is all the time I have for today.... 2 hours is too long to be on this computer. I may be back by Saturday... depending on what I plan on doing.

Thank you again - CN

130

How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?

by Change Name in

hi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.

i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .

do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.

Change Name

Hi there punkofnice - You can pick apart what I write all you want. To me, since you guys deflect my question and automatically jump on the "bash the WTS" when a question is asked, it appears to me that you all bury your heads in the sand when it comes to answering genuine questions about your beliefs.

Hi again Zed is Dead - Nice one! "Hemorrhoids as earmuffs"! Classic!

Hi again jwfacts - Yes, instead of answering the question you deflect it and call me out that I cut and pasted something. THEN, you question MY reasoning ability. Do all former JW's so easily go into attack mode with the namecalling? It is very difficult to hold a discussion about former Jehovah's Witnesses with you folks. Should I only get the perspective of current Jehovah's Witnesses?

Hi Dismissing Servant - If it was theorcratic warfare, they would not have said anything or deflected the question by changing the subject. This website gives a very good fact based presentation about the Jehovah's Witnesses involvement as a NGO/DPI for information gathering. The website shows that the anti-JW's obscure the truth by using deliberately misleading evidence. Yet you folks ignore this information. Why?

All who responded - Remember my initial questions. I was not asking if the Jehovah's Witnesses were or were not an NGO/DPI. This is an established fact. My question deals with your communities response to the website http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/. When a former Jehovah's Witnesses comes across this information, will that one read it with an open mind or does that one ignore it and keep his beliefs the same?

Here are my questions again.

1) Do you find yourself ignoring anything that Jehovah's Witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an NGO?

2) Do you find yourself automatically discounting this interesting information? [link]

3) Do you find yourself searching for a counter argument to this information in order to keep your belief that the "Watchtower" is an evil publishing corperation?

4) If you answer yes to any of those questions, what does that mean about you personally?

What do you think about their lead in?

"Some claim Jehovah's Witnesses had "secret deals" with the United Nations, agreed to support it and its goals, and then lied to cover it up. Is this conspiracy theory true? We show direct evidence from the UN itself showing these accusations to be just plain wrong. We also demonstrate how accusers are deliberately misleading 'evidence' and make many mistakes. Furthermore, one of the most prominent promoters of this conspiracy theory on the internet knows full well that the claims are erroneous but has tried to silence his critics and cover-up the evidence."

Is their information less fact based than your information?

130

How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?

by Change Name in

hi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.

i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .

do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.

Change Name

Hi there Satanus - I find the answers to my initial post interesting. Your initial answer said alot about you. You deflected my question. You did not read the question/post and asked how my time was going. You initially did not answer my questions because you are brainwashed/conditioned to not contemplate what JW's have to say. You associate me with the JW's so you will not contemplate what I have to say.

Hi Witness my Fury - While the UN/NGO status is used as an example, it is not the thrust of my question. My question focuses on the former Jehovah's Witness community and its associates. I have no issue with how the Jehovah's Witnesses used the United Nation library for information gathering. My issue is how people reacted to it. They used it as an excuse to leave the religion and become integrated into this system of things.

Hi there OUTLAW - Yes, please keep on insulting me. Why are Jehovah's Witnesses guilty of using the United Nations as a source for information gathering?

Hi there Amelia Ashton - It looks like you did not read nor contemplate what I copy/pasted from a pro-JW site. Why is that? You went for the throat with your information. Your information iseems contrary to the information from that website. Here is a conclusion they make:

"The Watchtower Society was a totally different type of NGO associated with a different UN department — the Department of Public Information (DPI). Accusers deny this, and claim the differences are “irrelevant facts”, when we can clearly see that is not how the UN feels about the matter. Let us now examine the original Resolutions of the United Nations to show the difference between ECOSOC and DPI NGOs."

The information from that website is rather extensive. Why do you not want to read through it and get a balanced perspective on this?

Hi there cptkirk - It is interesting how people deflect my initial question and want to show me proof that the "Watchtower" was associated with the UN as an NGO/DPI. I do not need proof. My questions were simple.

1) Do you find yourself ignoring anything that Jehovah's Witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an NGO?

2) Do you find yourself automatically discounting this interesting information? [link]

3) Do you find yourself searching for a counter argument to this information in order to keep your belief that the "Watchtower" is an evil publishing corperation?

4) If you answer yes to any of those questions, what does that mean about you personally?

Hi there Ucantnome - Okay, you said "Your question reminds me of when I would speak to the elders."

...and that means?

Hi Winston Smith - I take it this other person who you associate me with is named Recovery?

Hi there Krejames - I am giving you information from the http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk website. This website says the accusations are "just plain wrong" and they demonstrate that "accusers use deliverately misleading 'evidence' and make many mistakes". Why question, though, was not about the status of the WT as an NGO/DPI. I am asking about the reaction your community has when you come acrossed this type of information from the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Hi there 2+2=5 - What I have read on the other thread is misrepresentation of facts. When I am given information that may be contrary to what is being taught, I confront this information and see if it truth based on facts. Unlike your community, who ignores information from the Jehovah's Witnesses that may shed light on a certain subject, I confront it and make sure of it. DP, who is not a JW, quoted a few tidbits from the WT library. He said that it was revisionist history. I found out differently. Most of the "evidences" I have found from your community are not 100% honest. They mislead the reader.

Hi there Zed is Dead - Hmm... I made some snarky comments? What did I say?

"sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member. I am totally interested in how your answers to these questions. Do you find yourself ignoring anything that Jehovah's Witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an NGO?

Do you find yourself automatically discounting this interesting information?

Do you find yourself searching for a counter argument to this information in order to keep your belief that the "Watchtower" is an evil publishing corperation?

If you answer yes to either of those questions, what does not mean about you personally?

Looking forward to your answers/rants."

You talking about the tidbits in red? Snarky? [sighs]

And then you go and call me a non-thinking parrot. I love you too man! This is exactly what I think of your community.

I associated with the Jehovah's Witnesses for two years up to about July of last year. I will be going back this month to my first meeting since then. You can claim to be an old fart all you want. Age does not mean you are wise. It just means your an old person who has opinions. Solomon was given wisdom beyong his years but he made the stupidest mistakes when it came to women.

Look at that resolution and ask yourself where did you folks "surrender the sovereignty to God's Messianic kingdom" when you became an NGO/DPI for information gathering?

Where/when did you folks "worship this international image of human political sovereignty as the best hope for earthly peace and security" when you became an NGO/DPI for information gathering?

Seriously. Answer them.

Hi there Irondork - 1 Thessalonians 5:21 talks about testing everything and holding fast to what is good. What do you think is good in this world?

Hi again Amelia Ashton - Your judgements of your former brothers and sisters is rather harsh.

My question, again, deals with why your community automatically disregards information from Jehovah's Witnesses. Have you read through this website and why would you not?

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

Hi NeonMadman - Yes, I made note that I did get this information from the above website. It is not my information and do not pretend that I wrote it. I think your idea of original thought it is agree with you folks.

Hi there The Searcher - I do not believe you will be "in" for much longer. From everything I have read, before you become one of Jehovah's Witnesses, you need to understand what exactly why, what, who and how from a Biblical persective. If you need help, let me know. I have been reading and studying the Bible since I was 18.

Hi there Pterist - It depends on the scope of the involvement. If it was for information gathering like they claim, I see no issues. If they went around the earth promoting the UN as the "international image of human political sovereignty as the best hope for earthly peace and security" then we have hypocrisy.

Did they travel around the Earth promoting the UN as the "international image of human political sovereignty as the best hope for earthly peace and security"?

That is all the time I have for today. I will try and get back to the rest of the responses tonight if time permits.

Oh, to the ones that were vocal about my whereabouts for the last few days,

"up your nose with a rubber hose".

I have a life outside of the internet.

138

A question about lying and the Jehovah's Witnesses

by Change Name in

i have seen questions regarding how much jehovah's witnesses lie all the time on yahoo answers.

here is the latest question:.

jehovah's witnesses, is lying at any time something jehovah approves of?.

Change Name

Hi Dismissing servant - I have family coming down for the weekend so I will respond to the NGO/UN thread after that.

138

A question about lying and the Jehovah's Witnesses

by Change Name in

i have seen questions regarding how much jehovah's witnesses lie all the time on yahoo answers.

here is the latest question:.

jehovah's witnesses, is lying at any time something jehovah approves of?.

Change Name

Hi again Satanus - I have been talking with apostates to Jehovah's Witnesses for a little while. In my experience with them, they want to direct all conversations about how Jehovah's Witnessses are the lowest forms of people who do not have the right to worship their God the way they want. They claim that all Jehovah's Witnesses are slaves to the "evil Watchtower" and the equally evil "governing body". I have heard that they are accused of worshiping the governing body as God and that they are brainwashed fools.

Apostate Jehovah's Witnesses are not a nice community and I will tell you that it does not matter what I believe since we are not talking about me. Because of the hatred that apostate Jehovah's Witnesses for current Jehovah's Witnesses, you folks have your heads buried in the sand because you refuse to consider the opposite side of the argument.

Hi 2+2=5 - I am always honest in what I say and do. There is no reason for me to lie about anything I write here. Why do you think what the Jehovah's Witnesses believed 100 years ago have any bearing in what they believe today? From what I have read, they also smoked cigarettes and celebrated holidays.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses lie? From what I have experienced personally and through reading their apologetics, no. Most here argue that being wrong is lying. I disagree with them.

I seldom read people who cut and paste WT literature when they "expose the WT" because the quotes are selective and do not explain the article. In my research, each and every cut and paste I have read have been quoted without the context it was written in.

Hi jhine - You keep saying they leave out something that others are "entitled to know" but never actually say what they leave out. What do you want to to tell you that they are leaving out? From what I understand, others are not entitled to know where a JW's family is in order to bring them to harm because of their religious beliefs. In reading the context of the articles quoted, this is what the JW's mean when they say others are not "entitled to know". Others, like the apostates they shun, already know the information so they do not "throw pearls before swine". Look at Jesus' experience at not giving the full information to his brothers about his future whereabouts at the time of the festival of the tabnernacles.

So, what kind of information do you want to know apart from understanding the Bible. When you teach somebody about your Christian faith, do you go over all the scandals that your people have gone through since the 5th century, especially the horrible ones in the 20th and 21st centuries?

Hi again Data-Dog - I understood your point about Jehovah hating the lie. I think you are having trouble understanding the Jehovah's Witnesses position about lying. They teach that nobody should lie at any time. But they are "not under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it". The JWs teach that they should "chose either to say nothing or to divert the conversation in another direction" in stead of lying.

I think you are on the opposite side of the issue and will not consider what I am saying. Mainstream Christians tell Jehovah's Witnesses that they changed the Bible meaning when they translated the NWT. Jehovah's Witnesses will tell Mainstream Christians that they changed it in the first place.

Hi againwasblind - One thing about that notion is that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they were coming out of Babylon the Great and they were casting aside false teachings. They know that their organization is full of people who are sinners. Why do you think they write so many articles about keeping Christian values and morals on a regular basis? Can they be wrong? Of course they can be wrong! Why do you think that because they were wrong on some of their expectation that they deserve the title false prophet?

Hi again Data-Dog - Disfellowshiping somebody who does not believe a human's interpretation of an existing prophesy? Dunno anything about it. Disfellowshipping of a Jehovah's Witness, from what I understand, is because they practiced and refused to give up immoralites or they caused divisions in the Church with a teaching not of that Church.

Hi LisaRose - You must understand that I do not have a full understanding of their past interpretation of Bible prophecies. I know what they teach today. From what I have read from the Jehovah's Witnesses, they have interpreted Bible prophesies and applied them to the time they lived in. They think that Jesus will bring the kingdom to Earth in their lifetime. There is nothing wrong with that. The 1st century Christians definately believed that Jesus would return to the Earth during their lifetime. It appears as if you believe that a Christian should not look forward to Jesus' return and anybody who does believe this are false prophets.

I enjoyed what this person had to say about Russell:

" Attempting to determine dates of future scriptural events in order to encourage fellow Christians was important to Russell (and Rutherford). If they did it honestly and publicly (which they did), it was a part of prophesying (in the sense of speaking out publicly), but it was obviously never considered as (nor promoted as) infallible inspired prediction! Nor was it considered to be an essential element of the essential work of a modern Christian "prophet." When it comes to proclaiming the truth of essential Bible doctrines, "where else is there to go?"" [Link]

Russell did think that the Gentile times would end in 1914. He did hope that he would go to heaven in that year. Here is what another person found out about Russell said aboput 1914.

"C. T. Russell himself had warned against private speculations. For instance, he discussed the end of the Gentile Times and then said in The Watch Tower of December 1, 1912: “Finally, let us remember that we did not consecrate [dedicate] either to October, 1914, nor to October, 1915, or to any other date, but ‘unto death.’ If for any reason the Lord has permitted us to miscalculate the prophecies, the signs of the times assure us that the miscalculations cannot be very great. And if the Lord’s grace and peace be with us in the future as in the past, according to His promise, we shall rejoice equally to go or to remain at any time, and to be in His service, either on this side the veil or on the other side [on earth or in heaven], as may please our Master best."

"So, there were great expectations concerning 1914 on the part of many of the Bible Students. Yet, they also had received sound admonition in pages of The Watch Tower. Indeed, some Christians thought they were ‘going home’ to heaven in the autumn of that year. “But,” says C. J. Woodworth, “October 1st, 1914, came and went—and years accumulated after that date—and the anointed were still here on earth. Some grew sour and fell away from the truth. Those who put their trust in Jehovah saw 1914 as truly a marked time—the ‘beginning of the end’—but they also realized their previous concept was wrong concerning the ‘glorification of the saints,’ as it was stated. They now perceived that much work yet remained for the faithful anointed ones—and of that group my father [Clayton J. Woodworth] was one.”" [Link]

Hi there 144001 - Yes. People like to throw around accusations. I have never been a part of this forum before. This is my first time here. My one and only screen name is "Change Name".

Hi again jgnat - I did attend all the meetings and events and was a regular in the field. Yes, I will go to the memorial. In talking with you folks, I have decided to go back and start attending/ participating in the congregation again.

Hi Finkelstein - Yeah, you cannot say anything positive about the people that threw you out and use them as a crutch in your defense of your truth. I can tell you that the JW's I know are not ignorant lazy minded people. All people who belong to a religion think they are special. Born again Christians believe they are the only Christians. Muslims believe they are chosen by God. The Jews believe they are also chosen by God. Which one "walks the walk and talks the talk"? Obviously you do not believe it is Jehovah's Witnesses.

Hi Dismissing Servant - I gave LisaRose two links to read. Maybe you want to read through them and see what Russell taught.

Hi there TD - Are you employing a little bit of your own theocratic warfare in your cut and pastes? Yet, as you are full aware of, cut and pastes can be very deceiving. I did some investigation into the first quote. It was quoted accurately. But the idea behind your quote was that the WT was lying that Russell believed that Jesus would return invisibly. In reading some of the early Watchtower articles [link], it appears that Russell believed that Jesus was already present on the Earth, but invisible. He did teach that Jesus' presence would be invisible.

Hi again Pterist - I am learning the history from the source. I do not count on other people doing the research for me. Russell did expect the end of the gentile times. He did hope that he would be taken up to heaven. Like the 1st century Christians, he did not have full understanding of what the Bible prophesies meant and misunderstood much. From reading some of his writings, he knew that 1914 marked a significant year.

Hi again Finklestein - I have never been a member of this forum under any other name.

Hi again TD - Wish you would have given references. Too much to ask? Here are all the WT magazines from 1879 - 1916 [link]. I can tell you that Russell believed Jesus was on the Earth invivbly leading his congregation using the invisible angels in the harvesting.

Hi again wasblind - Truth is always the same. Its peoples interpretion of truth that in an issue. I have noticed that most here blindly believe those who oppose Jehovah's Witneses. Some are very lazy. I just read a few paragraphs from a Watchtower magazine from 1879 that says that Jesus' return was invisible but another here said that Russell did not teach that. Could it be that those who oppose the Witnesses make false accusations?

Hi again Finklestein - How about quoting the article and then do some research [yourself] by searching for the answer through the old WT magazines to see if they did lie.

Hi again Dismissing Servant - I am beginning to think that most of you do not do your own research into what was taught by Russell and his Bible students. It is interesting that he did believe that Jesus was invisible on the Earth harvesting wheat from the tares. But he also taught that they could be wrong in their expectations and that they should never stop because of a date. Why do you suppose that opposers to Jehovah's Witnesses do not bring out these things?

Hi Gopher - You could read all the older WT magazine to see what they taught. It is interesting reading.

Hi problematic - I have not been baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I am not pretending anything. I am who I am and have no reason to lie to anybody.

1) Yes, I have said so myself. I would lie to spare the life of my family or friends in the face of grave danger. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach this. They teach "a person is not under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it". The JWs teach that we should "chose either to say nothing or to divert the conversation in another direction".

2) From everything I have read from the JW's, the JW's tell themselves to be honest in all things. They will follow the lead of people like Jesus would did not give full information about his plans in order to throw off those who were looking to kill him. Jesus did not tell his brothers his full plans. This is what the JW's teach. I am not sure why this information escaped you since you have been associated with the Witnesses all your life.

This elder book I have seen and have read some of it. It is not secret but at the same time it is intended only for the elders. Most people, after hearing about the "secret elder guidebook", want to know why it is intended just for the elders. Its those people who have it out for the JW's that take this information and twist it to make the JW's look bad.

Your PS - I see things from a different perspective that you in regards to DFing. People who leave the morals, teachings and standards of the Jehovah's Witnesses do so with the full understanding of what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Bible tells them to do. It is not the Jehovah's Witnesses choice. The choice is with the one who leaves them. It is offensive to me that you lay the blame on the JW's rather than the ones who choose to leave. I do not know many who left the Jehovah's Witnesses. In listening to the JW's about this very thing, it is a very large would they they tend to when their family leaves what they think of as Chrsitianity. Many are still hurt years and decades later. Through it all they are obeying what the Bible says about dealing with former Christians.

Hereis an interesting article on this very subject [link]

Hi again recovering - Please disprove the 607 BCE date without using secular sources. Consider this link [link].

130

How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?

by Change Name in

hi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.

i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .

do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.

Change Name

Hi Uncantnome and Satanus - yep... keep your heads buried in the sand. Do not ask yourself the hard questions.

Do you find yourself ignoring anything that Jehovah's Witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an NGO?

Do you find yourself automatically discounting this interesting information? [link]

Do you find yourself searching for a counter argument to this information in order to keep your belief that the "Watchtower" is an evil publishing corperation?

If you answer yes to any of those questions, what does that mean about you personally?

59

Former Jehovah's Witnesses, will Jesus destroy all JW's when he comes to the Earth?

by Change Name in

what do you believe happens when one of jehovah's witnesses dies?

do they go to hell?.

if you do not respond, does it mean that you are only looking to discredit and bash the jw's?.

Change Name

Hi there OUTLAW - did you not say this in a previous post?

"Were you hoping I was Disfellowshipped?..

Maybe take a Dig at an Old Wound?..

Sorry,I can`t help you with Your Sickness..LOL!!..

I`m not DF`d..

Unlike you I really lived a JW Life..

It sucked..I Quit..

Yes. I think it was. You did not like the lifestyle and therefore quit.... just responding to the information you give me.

Hi Quarterback - Yes, I have noticed that many former Jehovah's Witnesses, and more knowledgable opposers, will use this ploy thinking it would discredit the Jehovah's Witness. If anybody wanted to count time while talking with people online, I am all for it.

I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses for about 2 years. I have taken a break from them. I do not count any time since I have not gone out in the field ministry since July nor have I turned in a time slip.

130

How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?

by Change Name in

hi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.

i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .

do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.

Change Name

Hi Satanus - Why would I need to count time? I have not been out in field service since July of last year and have no reason to record any time.

It is interesting that you refuse to answer questions that make you think about yourself and your reaction to certain information. Remember, your answers may help me decide my future with these people. More negative answers (or non-answers like the one you gave me) will validate that they may hold sort of truth.

Hi Witness My Fury - Does it really matter what I think about your profession? I think this topic was asking your reactions to certain information and what it could possible mean about you.

130

How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?

by Change Name in

hi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.

i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .

do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.

Change Name

Hi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member. I am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.

Do you find yourself ignoring anything that Jehovah's Witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an NGO?

Take this information for example:

Know Your NGOs!

W hen you hear that the Watchtower Society was registered with the United Nations as an NGO, you may not be aware that there is actually more than one kind of NGO. This fact is important, and is often deliberately obscured by those who try to condemn and criticize the Society.

In the United Nations system, there are NGOs who are associated with the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC), and there are also NGOs associated with the Department of Public Information (DPI). The Watchtower Society was of the latter kind — associated with the DPI.

However, many websites and at least one book deliberately misleads their readers by quoting rules and stipulations to ECOSOC NGOs, and then pretending that those resolutions and rules apply to DPI NGOs, of which the Watchtower Society was one. This tactic is grossly dishonest and many of those who make this claim know full well they are misleading their readers. Let us now examine the true differences between the NGO types, which apostates and other opposers often try to keep hidden.

What’s the difference?

The difference between the two types is quite stark. The online political magazine Insight has this to say on the matter:

“For an NGO to be recognized by the United Nations, however, there are requirements, and even two statuses for which an NGO might apply. The DPI status is under the authority of the U.N. Department of Public Information (UNDPI), which controls U.N. archives and research facilities...

“The other status for which the NGOs may apply is ECOSOC (Economic and Social Council) status. The U.N. Website says that to obtain ECOSOC standing an NGO must prove that its work is directly relevant to U.N. goals. With ECOSOC standing an NGO may enter into a formal consultative relationship with access to officials of U.N. member states and must provide useful or special information to the U.N. Economic and Social Council...”

Notice how DPI NGOs are under a department which controls “archives and research facilities”, yet on the other hand ECOSOC NGOs have a “formal consultative relationship” with the United Nations, and it's work must be “directly relevant” to the UN's goals. In other words, the ECOSOC NGO consults with the UN on it's policies and helps it achieve it's political aims and direct it's policy-making.

This is exactly what apostates are accusing the Watchtower Society of doing. Yet, this is not a description of the type of NGO the Watchtower Society was, but it is a description of the other type of NGO — that associated with the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC).

The Watchtower Society was a totally different type of NGO associated with a different UN department — the Department of Public Information (DPI). Accusers deny this, and claim the differences are “irrelevant facts”, when we can clearly see that is not how the UN feels about the matter. Let us now examine the original Resolutions of the United Nations to show the difference between ECOSOC and DPI NGOs."

http://jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

Do you find yourself automatically discounting this interesting information?

Do you find yourself searching for a counter argument to this information in order to keep your belief that the "Watchtower" is an evil publishing corperation?

If you answer yes to either of those questions, what does not mean about you personally?

Looking forward to your answers/rants.

138

A question about lying and the Jehovah's Witnesses

by Change Name in

i have seen questions regarding how much jehovah's witnesses lie all the time on yahoo answers.

here is the latest question:.

jehovah's witnesses, is lying at any time something jehovah approves of?.

Change Name

Hi Finklestein - Oh boy. You used the WTS as a crutch. It does not matter to me what you think about the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Your answer "the Truth is the truth and Truth comes from knowledge" means nothing has truth, or can possibly have Truth. Knowledge is subjective to the person who values it. An atheist would not think any type of religion is truth. A Jehovahs Witness would not think that anybody but their own people have truth. A Trinitarian Christian would think that only those who believe God is explained by using the trinity is truth.

Without using the WTS as a crutch, what is your truth?